Dialog, what dialog?

Dialog, what dialog?
I’ve been pondering the whole debate that went on in the weblogs about women in leadership and men and women interrelating.  For a long time I’ve cared significantly about these issues.  From what I have observed there will be little progress on this issue if people continue pushing the issue the way they have. 

“Shit extracted from the bible”
For example one cannot regard one position as shit extracted from the bible” and in the same article call for men and women dialoguing together in the same spaces and entering into a proper conversation which involves a humble attitude and an honest recognition of where things have previously gone wrong”.

This is a one way ticket to jail, do not stop on go, do not collect $100.

Church leaders, especially evangelical church leaders care a great deal about what the bible says and not a whole lot about people being victimized.  They probably should care more, but they don’t.  There is no way around this.

The right way to approach this
At the college I work very closely with a guy who is attempting to get the denomination to take a second look at affirming women in ministry.  We are having our first study conference on the issue soon.  Just today we talked about the interpretation of 1Tim 2.  He will accomplish far more by understanding the people and concerns on both sides of the issue. 

Clarify before crucify
The next step is to make an honest effort to truly understand what people are saying.  Just because people respond to you, that doesn’t mean they understood what you said in the first place.  Conversely, when you respond make sure you understand whom you are responding to.  It doesn’t take long to say I think you are saying this, is this what you are really saying?”  What have we come to when we don’t wish to take a moment to clarify things before we come out with the nasty labels. 

  1. #1 by Chris P. on January 29, 2004 - 4:24 pm

    What about the “shit” that is extracted from the minds of men? I found Becky’s post to be of the “I am woman hear me roar” variety. You are quite right in pointing out the dichotomy of her statements. (James 3:1-12) You also said;

    “Church leaders, especially evangelical church leaders care a great deal about what the bible says and not a whole lot about people being victimized. They probably should care more, but they don’t. There is no way around this. ”

    While leadership as a whole could do more in the realm of caring to be sure,I believe when the “victims” who are attending a particular church start caring about what the Bible says,it will go a long way to avoiding these kinds of problems. Leaders are always an easy target whether the criticism is justified or not. I am actually quite tired of the “victim mentality” that is to be found on many blogsites this afternoon. (The principle of an unknowable absolute truth seems to be shoved to the wayside today.) The biggest victim in the history of mankind, “opened not HIS mouth like a lamb led to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7). I think we have lost our bearings a bit in the smoke from the firestorm that this issue has created. You are right in the fact that there is no way around this. I know you meant that in context of non-caring church leaders,but it applies to the whole issue. Churches and individuals will continue to act or not in the manner that they see fit. No one side will be able to persuade others to come over to their view. This is why I’ll never understand the apparent arrogance of some of the emergent brothers who think they are actually “deconstructing” the Church. Problem is, no one has notified the Churches that this is happening.

    A final comment to Leighton for whatever this is worth to you. I surf through a lot of blogs, usually late at night when I can,and I will honestly state that yours is the best one of the emergents. I can tell you care about the Truth and that you do have a solid doctrinal base in Scripture. Even though we have disagreed before,I respect your positions. So for those who feel the need to beat on you for your stand on this issue,TOUGH! Honesty is a good thing even when it is harsh. Excuse the length again.

    Chris P.

  2. #2 by markio on January 29, 2004 - 7:24 pm

    It is interesting that I wanted to be able to explain away 1 Timothy 2 for the last few years. That passage doesn’ make sense to me but I’m having to work through the problem that no answer (that I would like to have) is coming up in all of my reading (books not blogs). Just when I think someone has a good explaination, it turns out not to be that good. I still want a good explanation for it so that I can walk away from it and feel confident but I’m not a confident complimentarian or egalitarian. That passage doesn’t really work alone either. I would accept someone saying that it was a cultural thing but unfortunately Paul makes a reference to Genesis which could make it a universal timeless truth. Now I don’t think everything that it has been been taken to mean is true but there is something there which cannot easily be ignored.

    LT, I applaud your effort to care more about the will of God than the historical whims of humankind. Even such a person can be wrong but I’d way rather stand beside them when talking to

    God about this then those that chose their doctrine according to what the rest of the world would accept.

    All of that to say, I don’t know which side is right and we should tread softly in this issue. Not because of radical feminism but because of God. Either way this thing can work out, it will matter to God (although I don’t think that it is an issue to divide on. . . just one to be cautious, kind, gentle and diligent with).

  3. #3 by Barky's blog on January 30, 2004 - 4:00 am

    what a strange irony – you end your post with a plea for understanding and a rejection of labelling people and then Chris P start’s off the comments with “i found Becky’s post to be of the “I am woman hear me roar” variety”!!!

    i completely agree that the only thing we have in conversation has to be humility. Surely this somehow involves the ability to try and see the weaknesses in my own argument and the strengths in other peoples. maybe then we start to forge a new path forward together?

  4. #4 by Chris P. on January 30, 2004 - 9:40 am

    There is no irony at all.My purpose in quoting Isaiah 53 was to demonstrate the humility you say you would like to see.My comment about Becky’s post is to demonstrate the irony in what she said

    as Leighton had already done. This issue shows what happens when you rip Scripture from its context,Paul said,Jesus said……..Whatever!

    In the mad rush to be PC the “EC” is not seeking the mind of GOD on any of this.Scripture is actually quite simple to understand as it says what is says.Markio made a comment as to Paul referring to Genesis and then says we can’t really know who is right on this point. So go to Genesis and reread the story of the “fall”. They ate from the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.This is what this debate is all about. We are to eat only from the tree of LIFE and quit trying to be our own gods on this or any issue. The question is where is the LIFE? Go to Rev.3. The word Laodicea means the people speak. So the church that is blind,naked and poor is the one of that holds to its own opinions. My GOD! I live among the Navajo nation which in its traditional ways is a matriarchal dominated society. The woman rules the home. That is not true when they become Christians. Now they are praying for their husbands to be men and take their place as the “head” So our church is full of moms and their kids while the men have either left their families,or are wandering the roads drunk,high or worse. There is also all kinds of abuse in the home. Think about this when we are wondering as to the reason that our churches are full of women and who are predominantly under a male leadership. Let’s address the real problems and get off the pseudo-feminist/sensitive white liberal guy agenda.

    2Tim 2:23-26

    Chris P.

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